I'm beginning to understand what Phil Kelly had in mind when he wrote the book. The goodness of it is well-hidden. Take, for example, the Blood Throne.
There is no way you're marching one of these bad boys across the table to make any use of it, but the power of adding hatred to several Khorne units is enticing. So how do we make it work?
The answer is in the way icons and instruments work. You make a mostly Nurgle/Khorne force and reserve the Khorne stuff. You put your Nurgle stuff behind an Aegis with a comms relay so everything is sure to come in. Here's how I'm thinking you do this:
In Deep Strike Reserve:
Khorne Herald, Blood Throne, Exalted Locus of Wrath, Exalted Gift (Grimoire of True Names)
9 Bloodcrushers, Icon, Instrument, Bloodhunter, Axe of Khorne
10 Bloodletters, Instrument
10 Bloodletters, Instrument
Skull Cannon of Khorne
Soul Grinder of Khorne
Deployed:
14 Flesh Hounds
15 Flesh Hounds
10 Plaguebearers
10 Plaguebearers
Soul Grinder of Nurgle, Phlegm Bombardment
Aegis Defense Line, Comms Relay
1999
The Flesh Hounds scout and run up the board to the planned drop point. Turn two, you roll the Bloodcrushers first. They pull the Blood Throne through. Then the Bloodletters each pull the Cannon and the Soul Grinder.
Deep strike the Crushers first, then everything else off their icon. Use the Grimoire of True names on the Bloodcrushers, move the Flesh Hounds into position and make your opponent pick his poison. Everything will charge with Hatred on the next turn if the Throne survives.. Even if the throne dies, the Herald probably survives and can join the Crushers for the initial charge.
With the Comms Relay, the instruments are probably redundant, but we want to make absolutely certain that everything is in place by turn 2 and ready to deliver the most astonishingly brutal mass assault you have ever witnessed the following turn.
I definitely want to try this (This and about a million other different things.), but don't have any Hound models for it. If I can find a way to proxy 29 Flesh Hounds, this is happening.
what's the current consensus on Kairos's r-roll ability? If he can use it for the army, would you consider taking him too to give a re-roll on the grimoire roll? Also, since you're pushing up and deepstriking close to the enemy, he should be able to flickering fire enemy fliers in the rear armour as they will be forced to fly over your main assault force.
ReplyDeleteKairos's reroll certainly works with the Grimoire, and is a great idea, but I wouldn't bring him in this list. This list doesn't care about flyers. This list is about annihilating the opponent on turn 3 with little-to-no risk.
DeleteDoes the Icon really work right out of Deep Striking? I haven't gotten my book yet so can't check the wording - but I mean DA/SM Teleport Homers doesn't work unless they're on the board the turn BEFORE they're used.
ReplyDeleteYes. For now, at least. And I don't think the Daemon-playing community fully appreciates exactly how powerful that is yet. This is why the army is so flimsy. All I have to do with that list is successfully deep strike the Crushers, and I will have my entire force in the enemy's face without risk.
DeleteThis is why Flamers were nerfed, because you can drop them with pinpoint accuracy.
And when I deep strike 9 crushers, I can build a pretty safe cushion, and place the icon anywhere around the ring of 7 I want.
DeleteThat is incredibly awesome. I always loved that kind of idea in the old CSM book with Icons and Lesser Daemons, and now an even more powerful version of this? This book just gets more and more interesting all the time.
DeleteI'm glad to see someone else pick up on this. I was mulling over the new rules last night, when I re-read the section about "pulling" same god units off an instrument when the light bulb went off.
ReplyDeleteI can guarantee any deep striking unit receives the support they need, right where I want it. I love the interplay between units in the new codex, and the rewards available for players willing to look past the obvious.
As to your list, what about a banner to guarantee a 7" charge for the bloodletters?
Yes, it was like the clouds parted and the sun came out and I went "Oh!". I feel stupid for trying to figure out how to cross the board with the army without dying now.
DeleteWhat about bringing a couple beasts of nurgle to help in the ensuing turn, especially if your opponent decides to charge you. You would still be able to pull them with an instrument if you had one left over, or just utilizing the comms relay and having them only scatter d6" with the icons.
ReplyDeleteGood idea. If you can squeeze two singletons in there, I say go for it. I'm not sure what I want to give up to get them. Maybe some Flesh Hounds.
ReplyDeleteI'm also thinking two Khorne Grinders is better than a Cannon. Lots of ways to modify the list, but the key is the 9 Crushers, the icon, the instruments and the comms relay. What you do with it after that is up to you.
My main question is whether we're certain that the icon doesn't need to be on the table at the beginning of the turn.
ReplyDelete"If the first model from a friendly unit is placed within 6" of at least one model with an Icon of Chaos, the following rules apply:"
DeleteThere is absolutely no requirement for it to be on the table at the start of the turn. Unless they errata that, this works.
Just stumbled on your great blog, via Faeit. Good stuff. Loving the plan dude. I always wanted to try aegis with comms with daemons. But with old codex setup it wasn't do able. But now very much so. Especially with the icons and instruments. Don't have the models to do youur list. Am short all the hounds and six crushers. But may tinker it to be nurgle. Love to proxy a unit 9 plague drones. Backed by units Beasts and bearers. And maybe even Epidemus not as bad as everyone thinks if they follow ur plan. He doesn't seem to have a Palaquin now and is classed as infantry. Very bulky but maybe can hide in nice big sqd of bearers.
ReplyDeleteYeah. Nothing seems as bad as it did yesterday once you understand this mechanic. It all kind of makes sense.
DeleteHis stats are identical to a herald with a planquin so i would assume he has one. That does not keep him from joining bearers and i was along the same lines of rushing plague drones with an icon in and chain deep striking nurgle heralds/plague bearers, dps all of it right in their face
ReplyDeleteI'd rush Beasts instead. Deep strike the drones so they stay safe and can use the instrument. You can't afford to lose the icon.
Deleteyep true. I guess palaquin is infantry anyway, just with the stat boost. I was thinking the same but with a great unclean one. They are looking very much a absolute beast in this dex. Always been my fav greater daemon. And with this nice tactic to get him close. And with bit backup. Half decent roll on greater rewards and the eternal blade and he will be proper handful. Loving new codex. Loving all new dex's and sixth in general. And ether blades on heralds nasty nasty.
ReplyDeleteGetting ap2 weps on nurgle heralds is really nice and i am right with you on getting the guo up and personal using this tactic. I am having a lot of fun with this dex as well.
DeleteSlightly off topic, but does anyone have an opinion on what happens if a bloodthirster or daemon prince with armour rolls the greater gift *unbreakable hide*? The rules state that you should reroll duplicate rewards, even if they are included in the model's army list entry, but although both rewards have the same rules, they have different names. Also, warp-forged armour is not technically a gift. Must the roll be swapped for a weapon or be wasted? If so, taking two greater rewards for the BT for the extra durability is a little risky.
ReplyDeleteI Think you keep your fingers crossed and hope u don't roll 'hide'. Be FAQ'd very soon i think. They have been very quick to come out recently. And there are a few questions/issues that need addressing. Personally I'd love jetpack cavalry clarified.
DeleteThanks Len - will probably just take one greater gift with armoured models to be safe until the FAQ comes out.
DeleteI apologise for the strong language but the 'rolling for a gift' is perverse. There's chaos and there's pointless.
DeleteWhy, why would you buy a dice roll when what you're going to get is not going to add significantly to your unit?
For example, you really want a thirster with that S8 AP1 weapon or armourbane but you could get iron hide, but! You can exchange it for an axe he already has, or a sword that you can't use for vector strikes.
Daemons are really, really suffering against flyers and tough vehicles without resorting to 3 grinders with warpgaze.
You give me hope for the deamons Slaede! You missed a great time at BFSR. 81 players and I came in 2nd overall with my last hoorah on the pure Tzeentch. Hope you are having fun in Africa lol
ReplyDeleteWell done, sir. At least somebody captained Daemons to the top. Africa is hot, and everything is trying to kill you. See you next time I'm at the shop. I think it's Khorne's cycle this time around.
DeleteYeah I'd say the highlight of the tourney for me was turning Azrael, in a 45 blob of guard, into a spawn =)
DeleteHar!
DeleteInstruments of Chaos work when you succesfully pass your reserve roll, right? But after that, the second unit to comes in can't exactly use their own instruments as they 'don't make a roll' as we know it. I hope I'm wrong... though I guess that's what the Comms relay is for.
ReplyDeleteAlso, for the Flesh Hounds? I just use the Warhounds of Chaos box and put them on the circular, terminator bases.
You are correct. The order of the reserve rolls goes Bloodcrushers, who pull the throne. Bloodletters next, who pull the cannon. Other Bloodletters, who pull the Grinder. The order of the deep strike is different, and the comms relay is insurance.
DeleteBy the way, if you're going to make a death star of the Bloodcrushers (Which seems to be the idea), you'll want to include the following
ReplyDelete2 Heralds of Khorne on a Juggernaut /w lesser reward(Axe of Khorne)
Karanak
Bloodhunter /w lesser reward (Axe of Khorne)
There's also an argument to made for including skulltaker on a juggernaut in lieu of one of the heralds.
Basically, doing this adds a significant number of AP2 attacks. Greater Etherblades are also an option.
Karanak keeps you from taking wounds from dangerous terrain, and gives you some anti-psyker defense.
My intention was not so much to create a death star as it was to get hatred on everything. I was planning to drown whatever in a sea of attacks.
DeleteThis post started as a brainstorming session about how to make the Blood Throne work and I wound up cracking the code on chain striking the army quite by accident. There are a ton of possibilities to be explored, but I think the main components are backfield units deployed in cover, the comms relay, and a big unit of Seekers, Crushers or Plague Drones to start the chain.
It has just occurred to me that I want to try and keep the Blood Throne out until turn 3 so that it has no chance of dying before the charge. Good thing I have a comms relay. But I will need a second herald carrying the Grimoire somewhere.
DeleteSee? There's still so much to be refined here! So many possibilities.
And as soon as the FAQ comes out the build won't be viable.
DeleteI do not believe the intent was to allow an icon having just arrived to be used as a deepstrike beacon for other units in the same turn.
I know GD's and Princes are super expensive, but I was thinking of running a BT w/Axe of Khorne and Blade of Blood. That way, I could either get 8 attacks and +6 ID's on the charge with AoK; or 8+D3 attacks with the BoB. Both weapons are Specialists, so I am assuming equipping both gives the +1 for using two melee weapons. Am I right? Any thoughts on that, or am I wasting the points?
ReplyDeleteA specialist weapon doesn't get you extra attacks if paired with another unless it is another of the same type.
DeleteWho told you this information? For it is untrue.
DeleteI think all the greater daemons are good now. They are generally better, and the DS rules mean they'll find it much easier to get close with support. With your boloodthisrter, I think two weapons is a bit of an overkill. If you're expecting lots of monstrous creatures, go for ID, if not, go for rampage. Rampage is better overall, so take that if your not sure who you'll be playing. Spend the extra points on either another greater gift for durability or exalted gift (although roll this first - if you get a 4 then you have no need for a weapon anyway).
ReplyDeleteThe thirster is now not as good as a Lord of Change. For ground assault, take Skarbrand. Cheaper and better.
DeleteReading the fluff for a thirster is embarrassing: rip apart battle tanks, kill everything - rubbish. He's no stronger than a daemon prince or any other greater daemon. He was our vector striker for flyers. Now he's redundant.
Just looking at the codex, and I see the bloodthirster comes with an axe of khorne, so yes, by all means get the Blood blade too. I think the bloodthirster has some stuff going for it. With all those attacks it's the only standard greater daemon that can take on units reliably on its own. Match it up against elite troops, and avoid hordes (poisoned hordes will destroy you with ease). You'll destroy a terminator unit in two assault phases,probably only leave one alive after the first round so the damage from power fists will be limited, and hopefully you'll be safely in combat through your opponents turn, and free to charge again in your next turn. You will also have a good shot at destroying a land raider (strength 10 with smash, reroll armour pen, and prob 5+ attacks) And yes, as Slaede says, you will get an extra attack for two specialist weapons.
ReplyDelete